All grain bavarian hefeweizen problems

[bk2ftr812]

I have been trying to brew a bavarian hefeweizen similar to Gordon Biersch (same as Trader Joe's). I have listened to the Dan shows, and have gleaned as much information from them and Gordon Biersch's website as I can. Unfortunately, I'm not having much luck replicating this beer. Dan's example is rich and creamy, with nice hints of banana, clove, bubblegum and has a distinct breadyness. My example is lacking the esters and the breadeyness and rich/creamy mouthfeel. Every time it comes out rather thin and lacking much character.

I'm a fairly experienced brewer, and most of my beers turn out great. Just this one is giving me trouble repeatedly.

My recipe is all grain:

Batch Size - 6.5 gallons
OG 1.052
65% Wheat Malt
35% Pilsner Malt
Hallertaur @ 60 min (4.8AA) - 12 IBUs
White Labs WLP300 - Hefeweizen Ale

Single infusion mash @ 152 F
Ferment at 65 F.

I know that Dan uses a decoction mash, but most people seem to think it's unnecessary. Could it really make that big a difference? I have just learned about how to do water adjustments including the chloride/sulfate ratio and might try that next. Also considering trying Wyeast 3068 instead since my homebrew shop carries both. What might be the issue?

[jwatkins56550]

This is something I get in a lot of homebrewed hefe's....I would try mashing a lot higher, say around 156, get some more body left in the beer to handle that high carbonation. You could try adding some malto dextrin to the beer and see if that helps as of now.

I was thinking about putting some oats in my next hef to get that creaminess....

Hope that helps.

[edisonst]

I struggled with hefs too. I personally always decoct them. If you have direct fire capabilities for a step mash go with that. Dough in cold 110ish ramp up slowly to 122 for protein rest, hold for 30 minutes . Decoct and rest at 144-147 for 20 minutes. Infuse or direct heat to get to 158 for 40 minutes or until iodine is negative. Pull a thin decoction to get to mash out. Pitch cold at 58ish. I like to ferment around 64. I never liked my single infusion weissbiers but I also wasnt pitching as cold so im not sure which one is the most important variable. I also never even have a slow mash when I decoct and it makes for a long day but no fussing with stuck mashes. Do the decoction schedule(or at least step mash) like in warners book along with cold pitching and you will be very happy with the results. It will taste like a real bavarian if you hit your temps and times. Go with wyeast 3068. Dilute your water with distilled to reduce alkalinity and use cal chloride and acid to hit your target ph. When I diluted with distilled I really liked the results...depends on your water. I know a lot of people poo poo the decoction and protein rest but from my experience with this style needs it.

[bk2ftr812]

Thx edisonst,

I think I've made so many lackluster hefes now that I better stop being lazy and just give the protien rest/decoction a try. It's nice to know that you have been able to fix your recipe by adding the decoction.

Cheers.

[edisonst]

My first all grain brew was a decocted weissbier and it was great. I heard people talk about 152 single infusion and I got lazy and tried several single infusion versions and they all sucked. Went back to doin it old school and they always turn out great.

[bk2ftr812]

I wanted to make an update to this post in case what I've learned can help anyone else struggling with this style. After some serious research, and a few batches, I learned that the reason I wasn't getting the flavors I wanted is that I was overpitching. I at first thought this was unlikely because I had been using Jamil's pitching rate calculator. This is a great tool, but after listening to the Dan show for the third time about his Dunkelweizen, I noticed he mentions the pitching rate: 5 million cells/ml. Since his Dunkelweizen is about 12.5 plato OG, that equates to 0.4 million cells per ml per degree plato. You'll notice that this is about half of the pitching rate that JZ reccommends (0.75 mil/ml/deg P for ales). You might think 0.4 is underpitching, but for this style, it seems to be what it needs in order to produce the characteristic flavors I've been looking for. I didn't even make a starter for my latest batch and only pitched 3/4 of a Wyeast 3068 smack pack into 4 gallons. It came out perfectly.

To sum up my experience, Jamil's/Fix's rate of (0.75 mil/ml/deg P), while it works well for many styles, is not a one-size-fits-all. Over or underpitching is directly dependent on the style you're brewing. For example, what may be underpitching in an American IPA might be the correct pitch rate for a Belgian Blonde Ale.

This BYO article by John Palmer really sums up what I believe is good methodology:

http://www.byo.com/component/resource/a ... omebrewing

One of the things that I think gets repeated over and over is how much of an effect temperature plays in the ester/phenol production. As you might know, Jamil ferments at 62F and I have gone all the way to 68F. In my experience, the temperature has made far less of an impact than the pitching rate.

Well, enough with my antics. Anyone else out there have better luck with this style when pitching less?

[Quin]

Well, now that you mention it... the last time I brewed a hefe I pitched two packs into 11 gallons. I don't remember the flavor profile from that batch, but I was chasing the same problem, too many phenolics and not enough esters. I think I also started out at 64°F.

I think you're on the right track. BTW, I remember Dan Gordon and Jim Koch both remarking that the 3068 yeast was a "ninja" yeast that would ferment just about anything.