Black IPA vs Janet's Brown Ale

[jm]

Holy shit! That recipe reads like the inventory of a homebrew shop. What an earth would that taste like?

Holy shit indeed. If I combine all the beer I've ever brewed I don't think it's that many ingredients.

[BDawg]

To me, both Black IPA/CDA and Belgian IPA both seem odd. The hops are at cross purposes with the roasted malts (CDA) or yeast (Belg. IPA). India Brown Ale aka Janet's Brown, works because the chocolate balances with the bitterness.
Much nicer combo IMHO.

[TastyMcD]

To me, both Black IPA/CDA and Belgian IPA both seem odd. The hops are at cross purposes with the roasted malts (CDA) or yeast (Belg. IPA). India Brown Ale aka Janet's Brown, works because the chocolate balances with the bitterness.
Much nicer combo IMHO.

Steve, you and I are on the same page on these two "styles". It's worth repeating what BDawg said: "The hops are at cross purposes with the roasted malts (CDA) or yeast (Belg. IPA)." Word.

Tasty

[dannypo]

Holy shit! That recipe reads like the inventory of a homebrew shop. What an earth would that taste like?

I was shocked when I tasted it. I was convinced it would be muddy from all those ingredients but it isn't. If i had to pigeonhole it in a style I would say American Barleywine but that's not quite right. It's just a fantastic beer that defies guidlines.

[Kazi the Younger]

"The hops are at cross purposes with the roasted malts (CDA) or yeast (Belg. IPA)."
"I just don't like their muddled hop expression from the excessive roast. "
"That describes the JBA exactly. It's hoppy yet malty (balanced) so there's no palate fatigue. "
+1
+1
+1

I agree with all of these statements. The Big Roastiness I taste in BIPA definitely fatigues my palate
so as my senses aren't longing for another Pint after it's done.

Janet's Brown on the other hand has nice Intense but balanced flavor that makes me thirsty for more - isn't that the point after all?

And Bell's Batch 10,000 obviously is not BIPA - it's "homebrew shop in a glass"

[thatguy314]

What's your second favorite Black IPAsince Bell's 10000th is not a Black IPA. Here's the recipe: http://beernews.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/Batch-10000-Ingredients.pdf

Tasty

Michael Kane (a guy in my club) got Silver in NHC for a dry stout that was 10% flaked oats. He consistently scored poorly as an oatmeal stout, but obviously scored very well as a dry stout.

Why? Because, when you judge a beer, you don't get a recipe sheet, you just judge by the flavor. We have no idea how much of each of these ingredients were added. It could be like dogfishead pumpkin which has a little tiny jackolantern floating on top of the kettle just so they can say that they put a pumpkin in it.

Similarly, I don't care what the ingredient list says, Bell's 10000 brew tastes like a black IPA. If you entered this beer in a competition it would score better as a black IPA than it would as an american stout or any other BJCP category. Perhaps other specialty descriptors would work for it better (like american stock ale or something). In fact, these reviewers call it a black IPA by taste as well, despite knowing the ingredient list. http://www.chicagoreader.com/TheBlog/ar ... atch-10000 (I assume this is where you got the PDF).

What makes it not be a black IPA? People can't even agree in what a Black IPA is.

It's darker than IPA should be... brown to black
It's hoppier than an american stout (of which there are many fine examples of hops and malts blending well)
It's typically less roasty than a stout or a porter
it should be dry, with a light to medium body

i think there's plenty of room in those desriptiors for it to be good. My biggest problem is with beers that focus on really strong citrus, which I think clashes with the roast.

What I like about 10000 brew, is that it is not really citrusy. I get earthy and piney without the big grapefruit I'd expect. I'm not suprised, given that it's been dry hopped with an impressive number of noble/noble-style/golding/floral non-citrus hops. Cluster, Crystal, Galena, Liberty, Magnum, Mt. Hood, Newport, Palisade, Santiam, Spat, Strissepalt, Styrian Goldings, Tetnanger, EKGs, Warrior, Wilammette, WGV. These aren't hops that are really strong on citrus. Sure you can say that you have amarillo, centennial, CTZ, Simcoe, and others in there, and you can taste them, but I don't find the myrcene-rich hops to be completely dominant.

To me, both Black IPA/CDA and Belgian IPA both seem odd. The hops are at cross purposes with the roasted malts (CDA) or yeast (Belg. IPA).

I agree wholeheartedly. But I don't think it's that the malt doesn't go with the hops. It doesn't go with CITRUSY AMERICAN HOPs. Most Belgian IPAs are crap in my opinion. However, I really enjoy Urthel Hop-It when I get a fresh bottle of it. Rather than rock the citrusy american hops that everyone uses, they produce a belgian IPA that relies on (thanks to the brewer for the info) Spalt and Saaz to get its aromatics. NOBLE HOPS WORK WITH BELGIAN YEAST. Cascade and Simcoe don't. The Bruery also does Mischief, which I think is on the right trail with heavy Saaz-like additions for flavor. I think they also put some citrusy hops in there too (which I don't like as much), but to me they take a background to the noble-character.

Similarly I think one could similarly do a good black IPA by using more english style earthy / floral hops. I tend to prefer these hops more in roasty beers to begin with. EKG, Fuggle, Nugget, maybe northern brewer? Janet's brown blends the northern brewer and the roasted malt very well IMO. So do many other beers. They don't have to clash if you choose the right hops.

I think I'm going to put my money where my mouth is on this, and brew some up. If the recipe works, I'll bring some to NHC. If not, you can laugh at me there.

[TastyMcD]

Similarly I think one could similarly do a good black IPA by using more english style earthy / floral hops. I tend to prefer these hops more in roasty beers to begin with. EKG, Fuggle, Nugget, maybe northern brewer? Janet's brown blends the northern brewer and the roasted malt very well IMO. So do many other beers. They don't have to clash if you choose the right hops.

I agree. Citrus hops don't work well with the roast of Black IPA nor the phenolics of a Belgian yeast. And that's really my problem with both these styles. Is that really as creative as we can be? Adding Carafa Special or Belgian yeast and using the same hops you normally use in the house IPA and calling that a new style? Do homebrewers have to all the fucking work! Just kidding there.

I brewed a Black IPA on Sunday with Northern Brewer hops. If I don't like that one, then I'm giving up completely.

BTW, that Bells 10000 is like 9.5% or more. That's way bigger than an IPA. Regular or fucked up with Carafa.

Tasty

[alan_marks]

So, what makes a "Cascadian Dark Ale", then? Let's think about this...

1. Color - is this just an attempt to fuck with our heads or is this a genuine style note? You could add squid ink and make anything black.

2. Aroma - I suggest a balance rather than a hop bomb. Perhaps more of a middle ground between an English and American IPA is in order, rather than a "more is better" approach.

3. Flavor - So, do we want a black lager brewed with ale yeast, or perhaps something with a strong malt backbone, roasty (NOT BURNT) flavor and a dry finish.

4. Mouthfeel - One of my concerns is to not have a pucker that wicks the saliva off my tongue. And, yet a final dryness would improve drinkability.

So, is a Black IPA a genuine style, or just the "next big thing" for the marketing department to latch onto?

Just my two cents,
Alan