Re: Final beer PH too low

Wed Jul 25, 2012 3:03 am

Just thought I'd throw in my $0.02.

How many things are you changing from batch to batch? Sometimes when you fool around with too many variables, it can be unclear what is (or in this case isn't) having an effect. There's always the chance that whatever you're testing, pH or anything else, that two things are working against each other - as in you changed something that fixed the problem, but you also changed something else that counteracted with it. I've had a few similar problems and I can definitely understand the 'cursed brewery' feeling. I go back to scientific process - brew the same recipe the exact same way, but I only change one variable. You can either solve your problem or rule it out & move to the next one. Perhaps you are doing this, but from what I read it didn't appear that way to me.

As far as the specific problem, Mr. DeLange has already beat me to the advice I could provide (& given me a touch of education on top). It is a very odd problem indeed. I would still question the pH meter, 3.8 should have a noticeable sour note to it. Palettes are different though, both in detection & sensitivity to various flavors. Perhaps this is the "slight bitter tang" you had mentioned.
Lee

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Ozwald
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Re: Final beer PH too low

Tue Oct 23, 2012 12:18 pm

How about the level of oxygen in the wort? Could that affect the yeast metabolizm in a way that could alter the pH? What is your oxygenation or aeration method? Have you tried adjusting up or down? Just guessing.
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Re: Final beer PH too low

Wed Oct 24, 2012 5:23 am

cosmo wrote:How about the level of oxygen in the wort? Could that affect the yeast metabolizm in a way that could alter the pH?

Not that I'm aware of other than in a general yeast health sort of way...
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Re: Final beer PH too low

Fri Feb 07, 2014 9:55 am

Eamonm, did you ever get to the bottom of this? I've been ruminating on this for a day or so, and have some ideas.
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Re: Final beer PH too low

Fri Feb 07, 2014 10:52 am

spiderwrangler wrote:
cosmo wrote:How about the level of oxygen in the wort? Could that affect the yeast metabolizm in a way that could alter the pH?

Not that I'm aware of other than in a general yeast health sort of way...


Unless you have acetobacter in there... they need O2, and convert alcohol into acetic acid...
Spiderwrangler
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Re: Final beer PH too low

Fri Feb 07, 2014 11:31 am

Thought I would go ahead and post some thoughts on this in case someone else is having similar issues and looking for answers.

The 'cup of wort in the garage' experiment that did not pH dive nearly so precipitously I think is a strong clue. Garages don't normally carry the bacteria load that parts of the home do (lack of decaying organics). So, it would be fair to conclude that the 'garage wort' got a relatively bacteria-free wild yeast innoculation and fermented fairly normally. A little lower than a cultivated S. ceravisiae yeast, but not wildly out there. So, as others have alluded to, this points to a bacterial infection somewhere post-boil. Since the finished beer here tested negative for bacteria and the pH appears to dive immediately in the fermentation lag phase, I would conclude that a bacteria is present that peacefully coexists with yeast, does it's dirty work early, and is then killed by the increasing alcohol content produced by the yeast. There are probably products in the beer that are 'off-flavors', but you may be a 'non-taster' for them.

So, these bacteria are either surviving the sanitization process or are being innoculated into the wort via something that you don't sanitize. You don't sanitize the yeast innoculation (obviously). It is known that dried yeast carry a small bacterial load. It should be so small that yeast growth should crowd them out. But it would be worthwhile to switch to a liquid yeast culture for their purity and look for resolution. If using dried yeast, rehydrate them. Non-rehydrated yeast are weak and may not crowd out bacteria like we want.

As to sanitizing, the OP has gone to mashing with RO water. So, this would indicate hard water as the home water supply. Hard water makes Star San less effective. Breweries often save lots of money on cleaning and sanitizing chemicals by using softened water for these purposes. pH is a good clue here. Star San solutions should be below pH=3.5 and not be cloudy for effectiveness. If it's not, double up on Star San (better) or use RO water for making the solution (the best). Even with all this, it might be possible, as another poster pointed out, that a bacteria has developed resistance. If fermenters are glass or plastic then the easiest solution is to switch up the pH of the sanitizer and go with an alkaline one. I go with bleach solutions as they are cheap. Again, with hard water conditions, double up or go RO.

When you've sanitized the fermenter and emptied it, turn it upside down or cover or plug the top . Dust settling out of the air in your house is loaded with nasties. They can't crawl or anything like that, but they sure can fall into stuff. Don't sanitize something like a racking cane and hose and hang it somewhere for an hour or two and think it's still sanitized. It's not. Think like this: 'it's raining dust in here', to make your sanitization issues go away.

How are you aerating? If you're not careful, this could be the introduction route. If you're using an aquarium pump and stone to aerate, use a sterile filter and consider replacing the stone often.

A good test for all this would be to boil up some DME, cool it, purge one of your sanitized fermentation vessels with CO2, drop in the cooled DME, aerate in a sanitary fashoin, and air lock it. With no yeast present, this will reveal exactly what the issue is. Look for pH drops, changes in SG, odors. If these crop within a day or two, you've got issues. Careful tasting any animals you've bred this way, some are pathogens.
ldave
 
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Re: Final beer PH too low

Mon Aug 11, 2014 5:11 pm

Perhaps a silly question at this juncture, but are the samples being de-gased prior to measurement?
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Re: Final beer PH too low

Thu Jul 23, 2015 1:15 pm

Eamonn,
Have you had any more luck solving your low beer pH issue? I too have very similar troubles. My beers for the most part, are ending up with final pH that are in the 3.7-4.0 range really no matter what the wort pH starts out at. In the first day or so of the ferments, I observe quite a drastic drop in pH that never comes back. This seems to be the case even with different styles of beers and different yeasts however is effect is more prominent in my hefeweizen using WLP300 or 380, Kolsch using WLP029 and in all my lighter styles with low mineral content starting water builds. The one similarity I can see to your process is I'm also using 100% RO water. I have a high quality RO unit, and the Wardlabs report of which shows: pH 6.7, <1 ppm for all ions except for a total hardness of 3. I had also contemplated the lack of buffering capacity of my water as being the cause but so far have not been able to pin it to that.

Any insight on what you have learned might be the cause would be greatly appreciated.
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